Vainglory Forums

how the hello u did with this update. for me totally unbalanced.
in the past u saw a lot of petal or saws or adaigo. now nearly not. u see only the overpowered hereos. skaarf now need only defence items and is a horror. how he make this damage with nothing?
in one game enemy skaarf had warhorn and 4 fountains. how the hell he can make much damage? his ulti kills our completly team. thats unreal. taka with tension bow i have the feeling evey attack gives me 400 damage. wtf. taka , krull , koshka with aftershock makes big damaage. but catherine with aftershock nearly nothing. same with eve of everest. celeste, skaarf need only this make big damage. but catherine not. for me in the moment totally unbalanced and not fair. for example saw now has no chance. u can have block etc. how u want. a taka with only heavz steel kills my saw with mask and tesnion. looool. what a joke. other game i had petal with shatter and frosburn. my ulti kills nobody. but skaarf with tornado trigger. his ulti kills us. loooooooool. nice updates. with the skins and cards is very nice. but the balancing is ********t. now u play in every game against the same hereos.
if i stun with catherine kruls spectral smite. how after 1 sec he can give me 500 damage?????
normally it must begin from new. a joke. its only my feeling that now its very unbanlanced and with some hereos u have no chance? whats the opinion from the other players here?

thx

It's generally agreed that Skaarf and Celeste became a lot more powerful after the update. Whether or not they are "totally unbalanced" is a question that's up for debate.

You mention that Skaarf has warhorn and four fountains - that means that as far as I'm concerned, that guy is crazily susceptible to crystal damage. If the Skaarf on the enemy team appears to be the current MVP, I would counter-build plenty of armor to make myself resistant to his ult, then build CP to whack the **** out of him. I just had a game yesterday in which I played Koshka and decided on the whim of the moment to build two Aegis. I took Skaarf's ult in the face and barely felt it. If you find that your team is getting destroyed by an ult from a single enemy, then that's either a build problem or a team comp problem, both of which can be dealt with to varying levels of effectiveness by yourself (assuming you're in soloQ and the rest of your team has no idea what they're doing).

Taka with tension bow is effective only if you allow him to run wild. Tension bow has a "cooldown", during which it's easy to wipe Taka out because he's also very thin HP wise. Celeste, Glaive, Vox, Koshka, Adagio, Skaarf, etc. all have attacks with can be activated without an enemy target, which means that if you're prudent about it you can hit him even if he vanishes.

Aftershock and EoH got nerfed (iirc) after the update, so they're actually doing less now. I'd admit that a Koshka with Aftershock and Alternating Current is extremely effective, and I use that as part of my own Koshka build. However I'll also say that that combination is only truly effective in early game, and if you suppress Koshka enough by keeping her out of the jungle (triple player invade, whatnot), she's going to lag behind so much that you can take her out in a couple of hits regardless of hero choice.

That you say that Catherine's damage with Aftershock is nothing rings a couple of warning bells for me, because it hints that you may not understand Catherine's role in the game. If you look at the KDA of most good Catherine players, you'll find that unless the enemy is absolute ****, most Catherine players end up with very high assist counts, very low deaths, and very low kills. This is because Catherine's job is to be a tank. If the enemy is rushing my team's carry and they look like they're about to ult, I'm going to run in and stun, take the hits, and possibly die (if I get ganked really badly), so that my team's carry doesn't incur the delay from respawning. If there's a bush that needs to be checked, I'm the one that's supposed to go in there with my shield up. If we're taking the Kraken and my teamies are all laners, I'm the one who tanks the Kraken, but they'll most definitely get last hit. If the enemy is right up against my turret and my teamies are all heavily CP with not much HP, I'm the one who has to be in front of the turret aggroing everything so that they can snipe the enemy. The use of Aftershock/EoH in Catherine's build is not to do damage, but to allow you to keep your HP going. To that end, Aftershock is less effective than EoH simply because with EoH you reap benefits from having your shield up.

A Saw with Serpent Mask and Tension Bow is excellent for taking podshots at the enemy, but suffers from one very heavily flaw, which is that if you so much as use Suppressing Fire, you're blindsided with no hope of regenerating HP or running away. Conversely Taka can hide in the bushes, wait for you to do exactly just that, then X-Retsu you (or the equivalent), only to immediately disappear. If I were playing Saw, my first order of business would always be to mine the bushes, and to stay close to my turret, relying on my range to help me farm the mobs.

500 damage from Krul's Spectral Smite is hardly uncommon. In fact it's on the low end, if you compare it to what Krul is capable of, or what other heroes are capable of. Krul's base for a maxed out Spectral Smite is 400, and each additional stack adds 110 dmg. All of this discounts CP item boosts, so if you have a really good Krul player who builds Clockwork and knows how to move around the map quickly, you could easily be on the receiving end of 1.2k base dmg (assuming the absence of your own defence items). Yes, that's a very large number, and yes, as you move up into the higher tiers of the game, if you don't effectively counter-build you will encounter players who will as good as OHKO you right under the nose of your own turret without so much as taking a scratch.

So yes, I agree that the hero balance needs adjustment and merits debate, but I think the points you mentioned aren't unreasonable at this point.

Also... I don't mean to be rude in any way, but it would really help readability if you capitalized the start of your sentences :)

All moba's have hero balance issues. Saw has always been weak, and petal and adagio were nerfed & are now less common. Krul can pack a punch but is also often fragile, Celeste is easy to pick on, and skaarf is clearly OP. Please understand that heroes are constantly undergoing changes because it's exceptionally hard for the developers to make them all equal in purpose & threat.

sorry my english not the best . not understood all right.
i understand the role from catherine and i like to play her.
the mostly game with saw im team is a losser game. he is to easy to kill.
vox, koshka , krul , taka , skaarf can kill him so easy.
u right that tension bow has a cooldown. so i not understand how taka with one attack can kill saw so fast if 5 sec cooldown. before all the updates saw was strong . with 2 masks he got enough lifesteal . but now the mask is a joke. the abilities from cath have long cooldown. 13 sec for first ability. a joke. so u have to buy a clockwork . then its half. its also long time. other hero without clockwork have cooldown around 3-6 sec. thats unfair.
for example u teammates are dead and u tower is under attack. i try to defend. but never a chance. the other heros attack tower and let u away . they dont attack me because they know i can do nearly no damage. thats so bad. normally if catherine makes the bubble the enmey must burn. they must smelt if they stay in the bubble. but no they get only 20 damage per second. a joke. i want only that is little fair for all heros. that makes fun to play all heros.
if the game is balanced why i see in every game nearly the same heros??????
in one game from ten i see adaigo , petal or saw. so what is the sense a lot of heros if in every game i see the same. it would be nice the developer think about this.

I don't think they changed the lifesteal from Serpent Mask? I'm not 100% sure about that. Taka was always a bursty damage character. If they build stacks in the jungle before going out to hit the Saw, the Saw is on the receiving end of not just the Tension Bow damage, but all the crits from the stacks. If they did build a Tyrant Monocle somewhere in there you're definitely going to feel the pain unless you have defence items prepared. I don't play Taka, but as a Koshka in early game, if I build three to four stacks in the jungle and spring on a Saw in the middle of the lane, he's going down unless he started off building defence, which is very rare. The times I've failed would be because the Saw kept their Roadie Run for circumstances exactly like this and used it to back up to the cover of the turret.

Catherine **has** to have Clockwork. Her main attack is undeniably the most reliable stun there is in the game, so it has to be balanced out by a certain amount of cooldown. If Catherine could stun every 3-6 seconds without Clockwork she would be so OP she could shut down the entire enemy team by just stunning all of them repeatedly. Just thinking about that gives me the shivers. As for turret warfare, an approach which has worked for me with Catherine is to silence with my ult from behind the turret (because it passes through), then stun the enemy that's nearest to the turret before running away immediately. This makes it such that the turret does the damage for me, which is better than nothing. Initiating with my ult ensures that I can at least run away or gain some kind of a head start.

If your entire team is down and the enemy is pushing your tower, running towards it is straight up suicide no matter which character you are playing, subject to the caveat that the entire enemy team is already at critical levels of HP. The last thing you want is for an enemy Ardan to trap you with his ult, wipe you out, and then the enemy aces again. Instead I'd load up on infusions, take very strategic podshots without overextending, and try to set up scout traps where possible.

today in my team a saw with mask and sorrowblade. 1 vs 1 against glaive with warhorn...
and our saw lost . the mostly game if saw is in the team its a lost-
now im not wondering that if saw in our team other teammate not accept the game.
so now i tried to play him. lool. in other lane skaarf. 3 shots and i was dead.
i looked his items. wow he had a battery only. what a weapon power.
in the end i had aegis , fountain , sorrowblade and serpent mask.
and no chance against enemy koshka or saw. they killed u so fast.
so for what i had aegis and fountain if it helps nearly nothing.
i shoot the enemy with nearly no effect . my mad cannon 3 shots on koshka and she was not deaad.
im wondering so i looked her items. no armor no shield. wtf. she attacks me and im dead ( had aegis and fountain ) and if i attack i cant kill her. i hope with next updates they changed the balancing right.
better for saw the ne skin u make is "ripsaw".

It's hard to say without looking at the exact composition, but as a Koshka player going up against a Saw with Aegis, Fountain, Sorrowblade and Serpent Mask, here's how I would analyze it:

1. Fountain means absolutely nothing to me. It's only good if you can activate it, and even so only at critical levels of HP. I'd expect a team's tank to carry it rather than a Saw (because the laner should favor higher damage output), which tells me that the Saw might or might not know what they are building - either that they have something very sneaky in mind and be incredibly good, or that they just built it randomly?
2. Aegis could have occurred as a counter-build to my team building a ton of CP. Koshka generally does better with CP (though there are exceptions), in which case it becomes a number counting game. Do I have enough on Shatterglass/Frostburn types that I overpower the def from your Aegis? Do I build Piercing Spear or Tension Bow/Breaking Point to shred your shield? Personally I'd probably go for a Tension Bow, because that complements the whole Alternating Current/Aftershock build that is pretty common for Koshka these days.
3. I feel Serpent Mask really only works if you have a high enough attack rate to actually rebuild the lost HP. Mad Cannon is sort of a slow attack with a noticeable delay between the hits, and in the number of times I've been on the receiving end of that I've never felt that Mad Cannon was the one that killed me. Rather a good stutter-stepper combined with Suppressing Fire to slow me down is what's always gotten me when it does.

As for Skaarf, early game Skaarf is indeed a pain in the ***. Building shield/armor early helps, somewhat, I feel?

I never seen a good adagio

I dont think u activated your aegis on time when koshka ulti u lol

On the contrary I've seen Adagios with so many lives you would swear they are immortal :P